T3000: Programming offline, McAfee Install Messages

T3000 Software
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Hi Maurice,

Thanks for your fast feedback.

Before to buy any component, I would like to download the T3000 software and begin the configuration to evaluate the flexibility of programming with Control Basic.
I was programming in Basic 35 years ago but I have forgotten all the syntax rules. Nowadays I work more with python.

I read that the big advantage of T3000 software is the possibility to code offline on the computer and then load the program in the contrôler later.
But what is not clear for me is how to test my program on the computer without a controller and IO board.
Is there a controller emulator that I can run on my win 10 computer and then validate completely the program and interface before to run it on my house.
I did this last week to check the flexibility of Sedona programming on BAS controller( one of your competitors )
What are the tools for debugging code? ( line by line execution, inspect local variable values…)

My question about the number of programs was because I would like to define some function like differential thermostat ( with DECLARE statement that I can call in the main program) I understood from software manual that a program could be defined as a function by adding this DECLARE statement at the first line with parameters of the function.
Is it possible to declare all my functions in on program ( so having more than one DECLARE in one program block)?
What about local and global variables when managing functions blocks?
I will check with Brent regarding node red interface.
Node red is preinstalled on Rasbian buster that was installed on my rasberry Pi.
It also available when installing OpenHabian config that is easiest way to run OpenHab.

Last 2 questions for now:
In Belgium the voltage for line is 240 VAC , is there a version of bacnet boiler controller that works with 240 V?
My existing system have 12 triacs digital outputs for 240 VAC actuators, my plan would be to use Metz connect Triac module on Modbus or bacnet MS/ TP to extend my T3 controller . Are there reference on such configuration or limitation to take into account?

Thanks in advance for your further support.

Pierre

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Programming Offline: You can write the programs and check the syntax by running T3000 on a win10 machine without the hardware, however the logic is not actually running when you are offline. To see the logic actually doing any control features you’ll need to have some hardware such as the T3-Nano. At $39 this is a safe bet for someone considering our gear.

Declare Statements: For now we don’t have a declare statement but I agree it will be helpful. You can expect to see features like this in the coming months.

Global / Local Variables: You can use both of these in your programs. Global variables can be used in any program on any controller in the network. Local variables can be created at will and are available only within the local program itself.

Open Hab: Brent is working on setting up a test environment as well and will post his experiences shortly. Its a huge installation process.

Boiler Controller: This is available with a 240VAC transformer, same price. Just be sure to mention it when you order.

240VAC actuators: You can use the relays of the boiler controller to directly switch high voltage, they are mechanical relays in order to keep things simple when mixing power supplies and devices. Then you wouldn’t need the Metz Triac Modules. If you have them in your system already then no problem, you can integrate them using bacnet commands in your basic programs.

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Hello @maurice
Thanks again for you detailed feedback

Programming Offline
After successful installing the T3000 in my documents directory on my laptop, I begun to try coding a sub program .
In the online programming guide the declare and call statement are explained but with a remark saying not implemented…this is what made me confusing.
When I put a DECLARE statement in the program, it is well identified by the syntax checking so I thought first that the documentation was not up to date.
If it is a question of month to have this, I can wait a little, only using a Nano with a PT12 in the beginning to replace my bad pt1000 modules

I was also surprised to see in the release text file in the T3000 directory that the last documented release was from 2016.

I will thus order a Nano… and a PT12

I understand that I can run in a Nano a full software and test it without any Real IO connected. Am I wright?
Can I also configure trends, schedule, graphics to test and evaluate the logic?
Triac module are needed because my existing control works with a PWM on a 120 s cycle base for controlling some 240 V actuators.
I am not sure it is a good idea to do the same with the mechanical relay supplied with boiler controller.
Regarding this relays of the boiler controller, are they monitored by the controller on a digital input in order to check they open and close properly?

What about boiler controller coding, shedule and graphics facility? Are they the same as the T3 Nano or BB? Do they accept also external Expansion IO like PT12 or Metz connect?

If would use two or three boiler controllers and having a PT12 module in another place on the same network, can both boiler controller access the same measurement ? How to share measurement between two controller?

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Release File: The release file is a relic from the old days. Now the update system is accessed through T3000->help → check for updates, as you do the update you will see the latest rev notes. There’s a new update every month or so.

T3-Nano programming: The T3-Nano is a full fledged building automation in itself, you can write programs and they will execute as if the IO were there. You can do alarms, schedules, floorplans and integrate your Metz Bacnet Triac Modules. You can do your evaluation now without the expansion IO.

Trend Logs: For the moment, in order to do trend logs you would need the T3-TB, we’ll do a new Nano with SD card slot in a month or so.

Relays: Agreed about the triacs operating on PWM, that will be better than mechanical relays. We don’t have a self monitoring digital input…yet ;).

Boiler Controller: This product is a real gem for the price, we made it for an OEM client that ended up selling themselves to Taco and in the shuffle the product never made it to large scale production. Its a full fledged building automation system which supports basically all the features of the T3-XX series. [Edit] I see its missing the SD card for trend logs, we’ll add it on the next hardware rev.

Network points can be shared between all controllers in the system transparently. Just refer to them in your program and the system will take care of the details. For example there’s one outside air temperature (OAT) sensor in the system which all the controllers can use:

10 IF OAT < 15 THEN START HEATMODE
20 IF OAT > 16 THEN STOP HEATMODE

This program could be in any controller and the outside temp sensor can be connected to any controller. The T3 environment takes care of passing around the reading without any special configuring.

https://bravocontrols.com/shop/bacnet-boiler-controller/

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Hello Maurice,
I do appreciate your detailed feedback …

Nano:
So it would be better for me to wait before buying the Nano or rather buy the boiler controller as a starting package .

CM5:

So If I buy a boiler controller first,
I can connect à Metz Triac module for managing PWM devices and use relays for the on/off actuators
Can I connect my pt1000 to UI or the boiler contrôler or do I need to expand it PT12 module ?
Can I configure trends and graphics in boiler controller?
Can I later add a Nano with Sd Card to increase control and logging capacity?

Thermostat:
I saw that CM5 is foreseen to connect to TStat with RS485.
I my case all actuators are located in a technical room close to the boiler and warm water tank, so I don’t need the local output capacity of the tstat but only the possibility to measure room temperature and humidity, display and adjust temporarily the temperature setpoint ( scheduled setpoint must have the priority) logging temperature, humidity and setpoint in trends.
Does Temco tstat fullfill these requirements combined with a CM5? Which one would you advise ?
If not, do you know other stats from other supplier that I could connect to CM5 to do so?

Temperature measure filtering and forecast:

I my existing system, the first installed version had no PID controller, this is why I developed my own control loop based on proportional action only. I had also a very interesting function name linear combination
F=( Xalpha + (1 - alpha) Y)
This is very powerful because it can be used to generate a first order numeric filter by replacing Y by F( from previous execution) and Set alpha to cycle_time/filter time constant
Example
If the code is triggered with INTERVAL ( 00:00:10)
If we want a 1/2 hour filter time ( 1800s)
T_filtered = T_filtered(1- 10/1800) + T_measured10/1800
this can be written also
T_filtered = T_filtered + (T_measured - T_filtered)*tc/tf

I used also this simple and nice function to predict the room temperature in the future and decrease heating power in advance ( what is absolutely necessary with the underfloor heating system I have at home)
I can calculate T_forecast =T_measured + ( T_measured - T_filtered ) *K with K define the horizon of the forecast
Example K=2 will give a forecast half an hour in the future

Comparison with temco PID controller:
This has probably a similar effect as the I and D of the PID but is very easy to tune and it works also very well with stupid comparison thermostat with hysteresis .

This is the reason why I hesitate to switch to PID control for my Heating zone control.

@maurice, Don’t hesitate to split this message to share this with other user in a more appropriate section of the forum

In my professional life as control system engineer, we are using only PI PLC controllers for temperature control of our continuous steel annealing oven . So PI could probably do the job but is difficult for me to unsderstand how a PID controller heating output can act properly on a single on/off actuator without PWM action…

Sorry to be so long, thank you for reading the full post

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Nano Versus Boiler Controller: The nano at $39 is a low risk way to evaluate our system and the only thing it is missing is the SD card to store trend logs which will be available soon. The BC makes for a nice installation because everything is inside the one enclosure though it is a bigger commitment at $135.

Pt1000 sensors: The Boiler controller doesn’t accept Pt1000 sensors but it does do 10k type 2 and 3 thermistors nicely. You would need to get one of the T3-Pt12 expansion modules if you want to use those existing 1k Pt’s. Another option to consider if you are anxious to get started NOW is the T3-BB series, these have all that you have been asking about including 1k Pt, trend logs and the rest. There’s lots for you to think about here but the T3-TB-1kPt is a good candidate for the project.

Thermsotats: You can do all you mentioned there with the Tstat8, they are well integrated with all of our controllers and have a nice color LCD. For a little cheaper option you can consider the Room Display at $25 each. They have a small monochrome LCD for local display and setpoint adjustment and they integrate well with all our controllers over RS485 using Bacnet or Modbus.

PID Control: The canned PIDs are there to get you started and of course you can roll your own function in our ‘control basic’ as the project evolves. I am looking forward to hearing more about your system.

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Hello Maurice,

Your idea of T3-LB or TB with pt1000 is the good idea.
LB would be better.

My total configuration would be
2 T3-LB
1 PT-12
2 relays board 12v 8 relays
3 air quality with lcd
1 tstat8

And I would add 3 Metz connect triac modules

For phase 1
I would begin with
1 T3-LB
1 relays board
1 tstat8
1 AQ-N—LCD

When supplying to Belgium, are these parts coming from China directly? what a typical delivery and custom fee for such a configuration ?

Can these modules be clipped on a din rail?

Thanks for your feedback
Pierre

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The price is shown in your shopping cart when you check out, the weight and shipping cost is calculated out automatically for you. Most items are in stock and ship out the same day. There’s more info on shipping and purchasing for new clients here:

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Thanks Maurice,
I will check this on your website.
I saw yesterday the link part of your website and I am really interested by the configuration software developed by one or your partners ( IO square)
This graphic tools is very close to programming IDE I use in my engineering job.
So before to buy any hardware, I want to be sure it can be also configured using controlCore.
Do you know if they already integrate new IO module and controller like T3 LB I would choose?
I have sent a mail to them and am waiting for a feedback.

Do you know if this software solution completely replace the T3000 software or if configuration can co exist?

I mean write basic function using T3000 and add more complex function using ControlCore .

Up to know I only downloaded the controlCorebasic for evaluation purpose. that seems very nice to me and allow to simulate a Tstat5 ou Tstat6 and see the control working…

I hope this can work with air quality interface too.

Best regards

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A post was split to a new topic: Ordering

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@Pierre : Our hardware used to be compatible with the Isquared environment but they branched off and now they are only compatible with themselves. If you want to get into Bacnet and systems integration with our gear there is a learning curve I admit. From chatting with you here for quite a number of posts though, I know you will be up and running in no time.

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Thanks for the compliment Maurice,
Iosquare seems nice… but there are also a lot a missing parts compared to T3000 and Bacnet
I hope I will be more confortable in the next weeks with control basics, a nice upgrade for future could be control Python…

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Hello Maurice,

What is the target date for this functionality ?

Rather than having a complete prg bloc dedicated to only one function bloc, do you plan to program block grouping multiple function like a library… or plan ton increase the number of program?
This stated in the doc that multiple call can be nested …

Another interesting way to extend control basic capability would be the possibility to code some user function in a python script , especially when the controller as a pi compute module that can very easily run python script …python is the more popular language nowadays and is similar to basic regarding the readability of code…

That would keep the capacity of programming with more flexibility some more complex function without needing to increase the number of program block .

What do you think?

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The bigger nice feature I saw in IOsquare interface was the capacity of visualisation of intermediate results in the code itself through the graphical interface…
Debug coding in basic ( like python ) means print values to the console… but I didn’t catch where the console is displayed in the T3000 software…

So I run the T3000 again to search in the IDE …

  1. I was surprised that the programs request admin password to run… and then T3000 was killed by McAfee Endpoint Security Real protect ( more than 10 T3000 files where put to quarantine)

So it will be really difficult to continue working with your software.

If there is a malicious software, please propose a clean version.
If the t3000 has some practice seen as malicious by not really dangerous, please update the software to avoid this…

Where can I send the Mc Afee reports of Temco by mail?

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Considering my professional computer was perhaps overprotected by the confinement rules from our company IT,
I tried to installed it on my old Win8.1 computer
I download the software through the tiny url link
And when trying to run the installation I got this message ( sorry it is in French )

image
image1632×1224 688 KB

So it is not a Mc Afee question… even windows consider that T3000 is not safe…

Probably the application must be registered somewhere to a Microsoft service to be recognized as safe…
Same for McAfee

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Debugging: Yeah, we need offline debugging and a trace debugger. Too many tasks, not enough developers.

McAfee: You can email McAfee logs to register3 (at) temcocontrols (dot) com

Windows Install Messages: Haven’t been getting reports like this but we’ll be working on the earlier suggestions about the install directories.

Declare Functions: Its on the list, will bump it up a few notches. The roadmap has lots of shiny features as you describe, we’ll get there.

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Install software:
How many people did download the T3000 software recently and install it without problem.
Perhaps there is a new rules to follow for windows software… I am not développer, so I cannot help you in this way.

Creating a basket including T3 controller:
I retry yesterday on my win8.1 running Firefox ( no better success)
Please check which internet explorer are validated for your website.

Debugger: what are the existing debugging tools in T3000, do you have a video with this?

T3-LB : how many controllers did you sell up to know?
I already experience one time having to replace completely my BMS, I want to be sure that the new components I will buy will be followed for at least 10 years and are compatible with multiple development tools

What about Sedona platform for T3 controllers? I read that some integration was already done with Niagara workbench
This solution is not affordable for me but a smaller tool like SAE developed by Contemporary control or EASYIO could match my needs.
There is also another open developing platform use in industrial small plc ( like wago, festo, phoenix contact) platform named codesys. It would be nice if such platform could create code for your controller.

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T3000 Installation: Thousands have installed our software over the years. Based on your feedback we’re working our way through the Microsoft Partner Center process now to publish to their store, maybe that’ll help. More news on that as it progresses.

Ordering: We gets many orders every day, not sure what’s going on for your case. Send an email and we can do the order offline.

Debugger: Just a simple editor is available, see below. There’s online help here with more info. T3000 Manual

T3-LB: We have been selling Bacnet controllers for a couple of decades. The T3-LB came out around ten years ago, I will guess that there’s > 10k pcs out there on various projects.

Sedona: We have developed products around Sedona in the past but to be frank I found Sedona quite difficult. The clients we did this for ended up moving on to other things, not sure why though.

image

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2 posts were split to a new topic: Which devices to pick for a system: T3 Controllers, T3-nano, expansion IO: